BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0111-muctadir on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:03 am

BIT0101-rayhan wrote:IIT's mission and vision is to develop a young workforce that will be 'industry ready'
completely agreed. But, industry is dynamic. You never know which platform or language will be popular next time. For example, a couple of years ago VB was very very popular. But, currently look at the market and you will find out the difference. And according to our MD sir of Binary Quest market is going toward python. So, in my openion we can call someone "industry ready" is he or she has a good concept of programming and OOP. So, instead of bargain on platform or language, we should talk about road map.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0130-Shakkhor on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:11 am

I think i agree with Mohaimin about .NET. Let's just play safe for now, we'll get the chance to shove .NET through their throat later lol!

I think, we can form small groups of 5-6 kids. The groups will be blends of all types of students. Each of the group will report to one of us. Classes will be taken by all of us, but assignments will be given by and submitted to only the group coordinators. There will be no "marking system", only "hurdles".

This way, we can ensure that every single one of them gets our attention. Also, we need to gather as many people as we can from our batch to make this successful.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:45 am

We already planned about the group issue. But before forming any groups, each individual will have to go through more than one hurdle Smile

About the formation of the group, me and Mohaimin already have some tricks up our sleeve Devilish

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:47 am

Well, although this will seem controversial. I decided not to post this yesterday night, because apparently, it was going to be of no use other than create more anarchy. But at least, now I can express what I am thinking.

It is confirmed that people will learn ASP.net in web tech, right?
What's the meaning of learning 2 semesters of Java then? Anyone who will first touch ASP.net in that semester will only manage to learn ASP.net, and then if lucky, ASP.net MVC3. But at present, ASP.net websites are becoming more related to technologies like Silverlight, Razor engine. I am almost certain that they won't be able to learn those technologies, if they see ASP.net for the first time in that 5th semester. Again, think about other students. I am sure that not everyone will be as ... competent as Mohaimin, or Muctadir so that they won't face any problem switching from one side to another. I know some Internees and not everyone are learning C# as easily as they are supposed to, regardless of learning this much Java.

I don't see any point in staying with Java as well. Java is now ignored in desktop applications. Surely, EJB is still as powerful as ever for Web Applications. But if there is option between Python and C# and Java, I would prefer Python. But as we can not facilitate that, we should switch to C#. Or is it harder to learn OOP using C#?

I did not work a lot with .net so I am not sure. But you already know that they will learn in Web Tech Course. Again, .net completely Microsoft Technology which may potentially harm in case of learning Linux by making bound to use windows.

You mean they won't learn Linux in Courses like OS and Parallel Computing? And like Rayhan already mentioned, Mono is a good choice.

Consider two group of students.
One group learned Java, and has a good concept about OOP. Their Java will be purely wasted in their Web tech project.
The other group learned C#, and has grasped a good concept about OOP. They will be able to use that language when they will program using RAZOR and other advanced technologies in later semesters.

If it is restriction and age we are considering in favor of Java, we should actually choose C++ then :/

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0101-rayhan on Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:01 am

It is really pathetic.....

Learn Java SE to build desktop applications for 2 semesters and then develop enterprise level web applications in ASP .NET...... I wonder, before developing such things, kids will have to study C# first, then learn HTML, CSS, Javascript, Silverlight, SQLServer, EF, Razor/ASPX view, MVC4(MVC4 will be released shortly)in just 6 months.....lol!

And what about PHP???? Nevertheless, I dont like PHP at all, I strongly suggests that PHP should be given extreme focus at Web Tech course...
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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0305-tanvir on Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:53 am

hmm, this is for us?? LIKE Very Happy

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0102-Mohaimin on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:27 am

Let me tell one thing honestly. I already admitted that C# should be chosen. But I am against doing it at this moment. And the biggest reason behind this is that I don't have enough knowledge in C# to teach bargainers who has no idea about OOP.
Language does not matter when you are teaching design pattern to those who have already gone through 6 credits OOP. But in the current case, good knowledge about the language does matter.
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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0102-Mohaimin on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:31 am

Sakib Sir has replied the mail I sent him last night. Check if you have not checked yet.

I sent another reply to him, I did not make you all receive that mail by mistake. Here is what I wrote:
Saturday is not only good, its kind of necessary because only three of
us (Alim, Toma and I) are available on Sunday. We will start on Sunday
this week. But please check if it is possible to manage on Saturday.

I did not discuss it with others, I was thinking about asking for the
whole Saturday morning, up to lunch break.

--
Mohayeminul Islam
Lets see what happens.


Now about the language issue. Sakib Sir has no problem with C#. Now the question is with Kabir Sir, who will be teaching the same course. He has started with Java as I know. If we want to go with C#, we should tell him too.
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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0103-Ovid on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:38 am

BIT0102-Mohaimin wrote:because only three of
us (Alim, Toma and I) are available on Sunday.

I am not sure that I will be available on sunday. Actually my office days are fixed on every thursday. So I can confirm it on thursday that whether I will be available on sunday or not.
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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0112-Rokon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:33 pm

Mohayemin forwarded a mail to me, that was mailed to Sakib sir, and I replied,

Are you okay? you are proposing C# to be the language to learn for OOP practice ? Trying to destroy the absolute beginners?
mind it C# is for industry, if someone trains up C#, anyone can do things with it, but about learning OOP in C#, I have doubt and IIT is not the training Center. There are huge handy tools available in C# for faster production and that is Microsoft's business policy. You can do things even without knowing OOP in C#. The beginners will choose the way to develop their projects. So ultimately they will be loser and they will not get it.


And one things I need to make clear, things are not like learning a specific language or being expert in .net including( asp.net mvc etc, rayhan did put a long list though) or something like it. Things are like getting dynamic, being able to do things with any technology b/c technology change rapidly, and you have to know how to adapt them. So learning java in 2 semester and fifth semester asp.net is not a bad idea.

Industry will never expect from a fresher that s/he knows things and can do perfectly.They will just want to know whether you know the terms of technology and you are able to adapt things, they will train you for their specific job.

To being a language specific expert in this era is a very bad idea.

Anyway,these are my point of view.
Please everybody, mind one thing, they are absolute beginners.


Last edited by BIT0112-Rokon on Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0130-Shakkhor on Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:43 pm

At this moment, i strongly discourage using C# or .NET technologies. I probably should have explained earlier about this. I do understand that learning C# is very important, to be more precise, learning at least two independent technologies is very important. And considering the power, resources and popularity of C# and .NET, it is a good idea to learn C#. Idea

But these kids are absolute beginners. They'll have to learn Java in their academic course, which can't be avoided. Now, if it was my call, I'd probably avoid Java altogether and teach them C# instead. But the thing is, they WILL HAVE TO LEARN Java. So if we push C#, that means they'll have to learn two languages. That may be easy for us, but for absolute beginners, it's going to be impossible. Crying

Now, another thing is, .NET technologies are generally multi-paradigm. They won't force you to stick to OO techniques. This is potentially dangerous, because from what i have seen so far, C# does requires some experience in advanced design techniques, for example, it has dedicated features to write Data Access Layers. These kids don't have that experience. So leaving them in a multi-paradigm environment will lead to catastrophic "Maggie 2 Minutes Instant Noodles" style codes. lol! So yeah, for now, C# isn't really a viable option. Java will force you to stick to OO, and this is a good thing for beginners.

Edit:
BIT0220-Iftekhar wrote:
Amit ভাই wrote:
Say, can we arrange a bonus session or two which will be somewhat like Introduction to .Net?
That would help 2nd batch too. I think you can consider this idea for the sake of both 2nd and 3rd batch.

Relax, kid.I think I'll propose Sakib Sir about a course on Enterprise Development using .NET for 2nd batch too. For 3rd batch, i think we should introduce them .NET at the end of OOP-II.


Last edited by BIT0130-Shakkhor on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0129-Tabassum on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:38 pm

I talked about a project last Saturday with Amit and Mohaimin.
Mohaimin requested me to share it by replying here. But I thing, I am too late Wink
However, I am giving that one here.

I talked about Income Tax Calculator or any kind of calculator type (not the simple/complex etc calculators, I am suggesting about that type of calculator which calculates some thing like- tax, loan etc).
The advantage of this project is, It can be build step by step.
In first step, you can teach them to have input/output in console implementing some logic.
In 2nd step you can teach them to use database and/or GUI Smile

I guess, I will be helpful Very Happy

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0104-ANIK on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:38 pm

BIT0101-rayhan wrote:
As per my thinking, OOP concepts is the primary focus but a specific language is the vehicle of that learning. Traditionally, most of us prefers Java as the starter language for learning an OOP based language. But, trend has been changed. If you guys explore the job circulation, you will easily notice that about 60% software firms asks developers proficient in PHP & Python, then about 30% in .NET, rest of them is for JAVA and others....!!!! (If I am not mistaken....)

It's true that juniors would be better prepared for job sector if they have prior knowledge about C#, .NET and MVC. But the fact is, most of us(BIT01) are not quite fluent in these technologies, not yet. We are just in the learning phase right now. I think we could instruct them better if we have at least clear concept about what we are teaching.

BIT0101-rayhan wrote:Meanwhile, java SE is almost obsolete for developing desktop based applications, Web apps development are getting friendlier and friendlier with PHP & ASP .NET & MVC framework.

Yes, every language has it's own life cycle. But the advantage that java has, as I have read in some blogs, is, Oracle has made it open source. Which ensures that every future platform can add a virtual machine and would be able to run java. So, softwares written in java wouldn't be bound to a specific platform, even in the future. Besides java is the best language to gain the cleanest and in depth concept of OOP and design patterns.

So I think, teaching java won't be a wastage of time and industry.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0130-Shakkhor on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:15 am

BIT0104-ANIK wrote:But the advantage that java has, as I have read in some blogs, is, Oracle has made it open source. Which ensures that every future platform can add a virtual machine and would be able to run java. So, software written in java wouldn't be bound to a specific platform, even in the future.

Actually, in this regard, Java has a huge disadvantage. Sun made Java open source, but the Java standard is owned by Sun and Sun alone. True, Sun made community promise that they'll always respect the community's needs. But now that Oracle is the owner of Java, there's no guarantee that they'll honor that. Oracle alone is the sole standard setter, and they're allowed to do whatever they want to do with it.

For .NET however, that's another story. Microsoft doesn't own it. In fact, nobody does. The .NET standard is governed by ISO, so anyone is allowed to have their own implementation of .NET (like Novell has the Mono Project and GNU has dotGNU, both are open). So this is essentially like the C language: guaranteed to persist.

Disclaimer: What I'm saying is irrelevant. Feel free to ignore it. I'm just trying to point out some misconceptions.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:18 am

Apparently Rokon missed the points.
First of all, we are NOT training the juniors learn the use of tools. The first stages will include programming in Console, just like Java. I wonder how many fast development tools are there for learning Console programming from Microsoft.
Secondly, all the C# enthusiasts agreed that if we teach C#, it will be using Mono. Even if it is not, we are not going to give them tasks or lectures which will help them learn the usage of tools.

C# is industry oriented. So what is IIT planning to do? Make theory oriented Software engineers who knows every line of the book without any practical knowledge?
if someone trains up C#, anyone can do things with it,
And if someone is not trained in Java, he can not do everything using it? What kind of statement is that?
You can do things even without knowing OOP in C#. The beginners will choose the way to develop their projects. So ultimately they will be loser and they will not get it.

Oh my god Tease All of us started programming in pure OOP concepts after two semesters of learning Java Very Happy
(I am being sarcastic, in case you don't get it.)

So learning java in 2 semester and fifth semester asp.net is not a bad idea.
In that case, dude. What was the exact point of learning Java? And why are we forcing something on them they will not use later?

And I am not sure why, but on what basis are you assuming that a C# expert will not be able to learn Java / Python?

We are minding that they are absolute beginners alright. That's why we don't want to force something onto them that won't help them later.

And like I said, if it is "theory oriented" language you want, be my guest. Try C++. I enjoyed learning it, and I won't have any problem giving lectures about C++. C++ does not have "faster tools" for development. And it is easy to learn. So please, lets give it to the absolute beginners. Very Happy

I agree with Shakkhor upto the point that we must not teach the beginners two language at once. But I should have explicitly declared that we don't want that in the previous posts. What we want is a common language to be taught by both students and lectures of IIT. If IIT can not provide .net expert teachers with industry experience(someone like Maeenul Sir), then we have no option but to choose Java from student lecturers' side as well.

Tabassum? It will be helpful or I will be helpful? If I, then are you interested in taking classes?

Oracle is interested in OpenJDK 7. but remember what happened to OpenOffice? And if they are promoting open source, I am not sure why they are trying to sue Google for using Java in Android.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0112-Rokon on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:48 am

The exact point of learning java is to be dynamic. You probably don't know in which technology you are gonna work with in industry. So try to be dynamic, learn how to adapt various technologies.

Sorry gotta go, I will get back again.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:54 am

which makes me ask the same question, again.

And I am not sure why, but on what basis are you assuming that a C# expert will not be able to learn Java / Python?

And just in case, we learned PHP. And PHP offers frameworks. And PHP offers CMS like Joomla Smile how many of us ate Joomla?

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0102-Mohaimin on Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:55 am

And like I said, if it is "theory oriented" language you want, be my guest. Try C++. I enjoyed learning it, and I won't have any problem giving lectures about C++. C++ does not have "faster tools" for development. And it is easy to learn. So please, lets give it to the absolute beginners.
Are you being sarcastic here too?

All of us started programming in pure OOP concepts after two semesters of learning Java
(I am being sarcastic, in case you don't get it.)
To my concern, we never learned OOP, we learned only Java. That is why we have a lot of Java programmers, a very few OO Programmers, that is why I emailed Sakib Sir, that is why all the plans are here.
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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0130-Shakkhor on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:47 am

I'm thinking one thing...i think we should probably move the Database Part to the next semester. The course may be too vast for the kids.

Besides, one thing is true. If we manage to teach them PIE and language basics well enough, but fail to teach them other things like collection framework or threading within this semester, it won't do much harm. Because if the core programming logic is clear to them, it'll be easy for them to comprehend pretty much anything easily.

So my point is, let's take some time, keep it slow, and don't focus on completing a course or hurdles. Simply ensure that they know HOW TO PROGRAM. Once that's achieved, move on to the others.

So IMO, projects involving database should be avoided.

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:04 am

Are you being sarcastic here too?

Any doubt?

And to everyone.
We all know that right now, at least in this semester, IIT might not facilitate .Net.

And apparently, some are thinking that I am trying to force C# right from this semester. Which is, obviously, wrong. I think I already mentioned why I started expressing my thoughts in this link-
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Anik, you are incorrect :/ They just started their second semester, and we don't know whether they are weak in object oriented concept or not. It is rather that now that we are gaining experience at industry, and have learned a bit more than them just because we are seniors and went through more courses. So we don't want the same mistakes to happen to them. To put it simply, it was because we are concerned. At least, that is what I thought we were doing this.

We wanted to enhance it, right? Not making them better prepared for the industry. The institute syllabus was OOP-1 and OOP-2, not .NET and C#.

What is the taste of rice? Explain it to me using Theory.
Or you can just feed me Very Happy


What I mean is, at the initial stage, unless you see something right in front of your eyes, you will have a very hard time comprehending it.

Now, tools and frameworks are completely two different things. By tools, I suppose you are referring to the GUI creating components and other things like that.

That's a valid reason to worry, but Rayhan and me repeated many times that if we indeed chose .NET, then the difficulty of their hurdles would be sky rocketed. I think you know enough to detect when a tool was used, as well as others and can set hurdles that can not be accomplished by tools.

In my personal opinion, if you can build a software just with raw code, without using any framework, you would be able to use the frameworks and tools better than the others.

(I will consider that you are saying tools instead of framework. why? wait.)
Sure sure. I said that same thing when I compared LAMPP and LAMP, eclipse vs Net beans and others cases.

One question though. We can learn PIE, OOP, and Design Pattern using .Net C#. and I can not think of using any tools in any of them. Can you tell me the usage of tools in any of them?

And let me quote myself, again-

Consider two group of students.
One group learned Java, and has a good concept about OOP. Their Java will be purely wasted in their Web tech project.
The other group learned C#, and has grasped a good concept about OOP. They will be able to use that language when they will program using RAZOR and other advanced te

It is their time which will be saved. And it is them, who will be internees after a couple of years. And it is their java knowledge, which will be left unused. And it is some of them, who will have to waste some time learning syntax and memorizing them although they have all the semantics inside them.


Last edited by BIT0122-Amit on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: BIT01: OOP-I, We Have Some Things To Do

Post by BIT0122-Amit on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:07 am

Shakkhor, your concern is valid Smile We thought that we should put the database, only if the previous ones are achieved, and we are satisfied with the achievers.

And Anik, you just demonstrated why it is not good to delete a post. I have written a big essay with reference to a ghost post. :/ :/

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